Curse

Bobby2 · Aug 13, 2010, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

I just like having the big unconditional damage, allows you to punish bad positioning so much more and score kills you may not manage otherwise.

Myeah. It's just that Body Blow practically forces you into using Yeti Smash over Hammer Bash. It's easier on energy than Prot Strike, definitely more damaging... but you sacrifice a lot of utility for it. And against good opponents, you're not gonna get much value out of the AoE aspect of Yeti...

Vecte · Aug 13, 2010, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Most sane people run 14 Strength/13 Hammer.

An IAS increase has nothing to do with how beneficial Sundering/Vampiric are.

14 Str/13 Ham or 14 Ham/13 Str has virtually no difference between the two. It all equals out to a 1:1 ratio of actual stat benefits. Which you choose to go with is solely personal preference, and/or, based off the skills you want to use, and even then, incredibly small difference

Also, when comparing the two, your attack speed has a great effect on the overall outcome of the two mods(More swings, more chances to proc Sundering, as well as amount of swings from Vampiric needed to equal one Sundering proc, etc). It's just the majority choose Vampiric, because it's a guaranteed DPS increase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Myeah. It's just that Body Blow practically forces you into using Yeti Smash over Hammer Bash. It's easier on energy than Prot Strike, definitely more damaging... but you sacrifice a lot of utility for it. And against good opponents, you're not gonna get much value out of the AoE aspect of Yeti...

That's something I forgot to add to my post. If you want to use Body Blow, or any other adrenal based damage boost, you will have to use Yeti in order to q-knock. Definitely something to think about.

*lemming* · Aug 13, 2010, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vecte

14 Str/13 Ham or 14 Ham/13 Str has virtually no difference between the two. It all equals out to a 1:1 ratio of actual stat benefits. Which you choose to go with is solely personal preference, and/or, based off the skills you want to use, and even then, incredibly small difference

4 adren Enraging is the most important breakpoint in that build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vecte

Also, when comparing the two, your attack speed has a great effect on the overall outcome of the two mods(More swings, more chances to proc Sundering, as well as amount of swings from Vampiric needed to equal one Sundering proc, etc). It's just the majority choose Vampiric, because it's a guaranteed DPS increase.

More procs per minute or not, Sundering's average damage increase per swing remains constant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vecte

That's something I forgot to add to my post. If you want to use Body Blow, or any other adrenal based damage boost, you will have to use Yeti in order to q-knock. Definitely something to think about.

Or you could just time your hammer bash.

Vecte · Aug 13, 2010, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Or you could just time your hammer bash.

You would have to use Body Blow before Dev/Magehunter's/ES in order to time it. I guess there really wouldn't be much downfall there though.

Also, the argument isn't about the consistency of either mod's effect, it's the total outcome after you stop attacking. Total Life Drained Vs. Total Additional Damage from Armor Ignored.

*lemming* · Aug 13, 2010, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vecte

Also, the argument isn't about the consistency of either mod's effect, it's the total outcome after you stop attacking. Total Life Drained Vs. Total Additional Damage from Armor Ignored.

What?

12chars

Sirius Bsns · Aug 13, 2010, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Vampiric modifiers are best used in PvP, and Sundering's best used in PvE Hardmode vs all those insanely high-leveled/armored monsters.

Swahnee · Aug 13, 2010, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Well, i'm using 14 str, 13 ham beacuse i use sentinel's insignias and i fear weakness, and i don't see any good reason to bring 12+2 hammer (well, maybe in organized PvP, where i can count on a good backline).

I was thinking about body blow as a replacement for prot in a microspike situation, so dev-crush-body, and then i would bring yeti for the q-nock. My question was more about the usefulness of the low activation time of prot: since it's indeed true that a 1/2 activating attack is more helpful in spikes, even if it doesn't deal big damage (i can think about the burning arrow+savage shot microspike), i was wandering if, and when, it was useful to give up to the spike bonus of prot, to be able to deal more damage outside spikes. The solo'ing overextended people seems a good niche where to use body blow instead of prot. This would mean that a team with this kind of warrior hits less hard in spikes, but has some more utility, right?

Quote:

Myeah. It's just that Body Blow practically forces you into using Yeti Smash over Hammer Bash. It's easier on energy than Prot Strike, definitely more damaging... but you sacrifice a lot of utility for it.

When you talk about utility of prot, you are thinking about his spike-ish capability and the chance of punishing kiting/moving overextended people, or i'm missing something?

As far as the vamp/sund, the average bonus damage of the 20/20 mod is (from personal calculations) between 0.8 and 1.2 roughly (take care that i was thinking about a PvE situation, so i took into account monsters with AL from 60 to 120 iirc, and i used different weapons). Since the average bonus "damage" of vampiric is 3 or 5, i think that it's better from a DPS point of view.

Then the usefulness of 20/20 is that from time to time you end up with a bigger spike, so i think that it could be useful if you plan on doing only spikes, hoping that when 20/20 triggers you get a kill, but i'm still a bit skeptical about this reasoning.

Quote:

Also, the argument isn't about the consistency of either mod's effect, it's the total outcome after you stop attacking. Total Life Drained Vs. Total Additional Damage from Armor Ignored.

I don't get it. The total damage after you stop attacking is average damage*number of hits (think about the rectangle with an area equal to the area under the function), so if the number of hits is the same (IAS or not IAS), the total damage is greater when the average damage is greater, which is in the vampiric case. Maybe i'm missing something though..

Elentari · Aug 13, 2010, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Body blow enables you to do one combo in a specific order to land higher damage = means it's less versatile, if that's what you meant by it being more/less utility than prot strike (which you could use in a number of situations)
If you want to be more effective at soloing targets, consider overbearing smash instead, unblockable and loldaze.
The major diff between the extra attack skill being an adren or an energy one is that adren ones must be used b4 yetis, which in turn forces you to use Crushing right after Dev. I think it was pointed out before but in most cases a later deep wound is more viable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

4 adren Enraging is the most important breakpoint in that build.

This. Would never advise 14 hammer over 14 str.

Sundering vs Vamp. Imo although sundering can land you a big chunk of extra damage on a spike, vamp is definitely more reliable in terms of overall pressure because it's a consistent bonus instead of a random one.
Hmm actually I've never tested sundering vs vamp at the master of damage, I usually just compare numbers between different builds using the same equip. Does he even count life stealing into the total/average damage?

Btw yeti is fun and all but for srs play I'd keep Bash. And wasn't this about q-stepping?

*lemming* · Aug 13, 2010, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elentari

If you want to be more effective at soloing targets, consider overbearing smash instead, unblockable and loldaze.
The major diff between the extra attack skill being an adren or an energy one is that adren ones must be used b4 yetis, which in turn forces you to use Crushing right after Dev. I think it was pointed out before but in most cases a later deep wound is more viable.

This. Would never advise 14 hammer over 14 str.

Sundering vs Vamp. Imo although sundering can land you a big chunk of extra damage on a spike, vamp is definitely more reliable in terms of overall pressure because it's a consistent bonus instead of a random one.
Hmm actually I've never tested sundering vs vamp at the master of damage, I usually just compare numbers between different builds using the same equip. Does he even count life stealing into the total/average damage?

Btw yeti is fun and all but for srs play I'd keep Bash. And wasn't this about q-stepping?

Best way to handle it would be Dev -> (Flail) -> Auto -> Body Blow -> Yeti -> Crushing.

In the dedicated flagger soloing bar, Overbearing isn't any better than Body Blow - losing the 20 damage takes the full chain out of lethal range.

Unless my math is painfully wrong, a Sundering normal hit is worth about an additional 10 damage and a crit is worth an additional ~16 for armor levels between 60 and 100.

Over the course of an unload into a spike (KD -> Crushing -> Protstrike), you need at least one proc to about break even with Vampiric and at least two procs to gain any damage, which happens ~10% of the time.

tl;dr: Sundering's effect on your adren unloads is swingy and lowers your overall dps.

Also, outside of builds with a full spiking midline, I find Yeti Smash to be preferable to Dev. Getting two hits for every quarterknock without needing to run protstrike is quite a bit of damage and frees you to run Overbearing, which I'm a fairly big fan of. Additionally, Yeti is usable as a far superior twitch interrupt to Bash.

The drawback of not being unconditional is potentially a problem, but if you're running either a necro or a ranger (or both), it's not very noticeable. The only other problem of whiffing KDs on targets kiting can be mitigated with proper sidestepping/positioning.

fowlero · Aug 13, 2010, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Myeah. It's just that Body Blow practically forces you into using Yeti Smash over Hammer Bash. It's easier on energy than Prot Strike, definitely more damaging... but you sacrifice a lot of utility for it. And against good opponents, you're not gonna get much value out of the AoE aspect of Yeti...

You don't lose anything by taking yeti over hammer bash. The condition is not difficult to meet if you just use dw straight before yeti.

You don't run yeti for aoe anyway, you run it so you can get 2 hits in and still get the quarter knock.

Sure you can't (always) make clutch kd's when you only have yeti smash charged, but that's not much loss.

What utility are you on about? Not running daze or wild throw?

I was only reffering to yeti smash builds for body blow.

MaaKotka · Aug 13, 2010, 03:10 PM // 15:10

With yeti you will get faster wins against bad teams/monks, but it gets unreliable against monks that are actually good and I like to build against good teams rather than little bit faster wins against bad teams.

Sirius Bsns · Aug 13, 2010, 03:14 PM // 15:14

I usually do the following on my dev ham war:
Dev Hammer->Flail + spacebar (counting 3 seconds in my head)-->(on the 3rd second of targets kd, just as the victim gets up)Crushing Blow + Yeti's --->(again, just as the victim gets up)OB Smash .

It's the best way to ensure optimal pressure and 100% kds (as long as you're not blinded, Blurred, Blocked, etc.).

*lemming* · Aug 13, 2010, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I usually do the following on my dev ham war:
Dev Hammer->Flail + spacebar (counting 3 seconds in my head)-->(on the 3rd second of targets kd, just as the victim gets up)Crushing Blow + Yeti's --->(again, just as the victim gets up)OB Smash .

Yeti after two flailed attacks is already an automatic quarterknock. Why bother counting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

With yeti you will get faster wins against bad teams/monks, but it gets unreliable against monks that are actually good and I like to build against good teams rather than little bit faster wins against bad teams.

I certainly haven't noticed any difference.

Sirius Bsns · Aug 13, 2010, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Yeti after two flailed attacks is already an automatic quarterknock. Why bother counting?

I certainly haven't noticed any difference.

Your theory applies only when there's no displacement between you and your target [i.e.: he didn't kite with/without increased movement speed while you landed dev hammer]. I count just to avoid any such complication from that kind of event.

*lemming* · Aug 13, 2010, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Your theory applies only when there's no displacement between you and your target [i.e.: he didn't kite with/without increased movement speed while you landed dev hammer]. I count just to avoid any such complication from that kind of event.

Quarterstep properly.

Vecte · Aug 13, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Your theory applies only when there's no displacement between you and your target [i.e.: he didn't kite with/without increased movement speed while you landed dev hammer]. I count just to avoid any such complication from that kind of event.

There is no theory behind it, if you land Dev, and do the sequence properly, it's a guaranteed q-knock every time. If Dev connects, everything else will, your opponent isn't going to jump out of your range on the ground, and there isn't going to be a delay.

Bobby2 · Aug 13, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

When you talk about utility of prot, you are thinking about his spike-ish capability and the chance of punishing kiting/moving overextended people, or i'm missing something?

Was talking about the utility of Bash over Yeti. fowlero already touched on that... guess it's a matter of preference.

Also Prot's good but how would it be spikier than Body Blow xD

fowlero · Aug 13, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Was talking about the utility of Bash over Yeti. fowlero already touched on that... guess it's a matter of preference.

Also Prot's good but how would it be spikier than Body Blow xD

It has a half second activation rather than normal attack speed, meaning you get two packets of damage in faster.

Vecte · Aug 13, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Was talking about the utility of Bash over Yeti. fowlero already touched on that... guess it's a matter of preference.

Also Prot's good but how would it be spikier than Body Blow xD

It allows a second attack between knockdowns, when q-knocking with Hammer Bash as well. Without it, you can only perform either Crushing or an Auto-attack, then have to pause/q-step, then Hammer Bash, for the q-knock to be successful.

Elentari · Aug 14, 2010, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vecte

There is no theory behind it, if you land Dev, and do the sequence properly, it's a guaranteed q-knock every time. If Dev connects, everything else will, your opponent isn't going to jump out of your range on the ground, and there isn't going to be a delay.

There's an activation time for Dev meaning that there's room for displacement between when you start the swing and when the KD lands. This is best illustrated if you're snared and Dev a moving target - you KD, and then by the time you walk to the target you will not have the same time window to land 2 normal hits and then the q-knock yetis.